> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://www.withrealityinmind.com/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # Alexey Tolchinsky, Psy.D., and Bernardo Kastrup in conversation - URL: https://www.withrealityinmind.com/recording-things-have-to-get-worse-before-they-get-better-with-alexey-tolchinsky-psy-d/ - Published: 2025-06-10T10:54:00.000Z - Updated: 2026-09-21T07:13:34.000Z - Description: Do things have to get worse before they get better? - Author: Amir Giles - Tags: meeting, recording Recording details Date: 10 June 2025 Duration: 1h 59m Free preview Chapters 0:00:00 Alexey Tolchinsky meets analytic idealism 0:05:35 Why idealism does not mean **thinking yourself well** 0:10:34 Bringing meaning into clinical practice 0:15:18 Why a clinician insists on evidence and expertise 0:20:05 Is mental health too easily reduced to **diagnostic boxes**? 0:25:11 Could some disorder help us become unstuck? 0:30:03 **Chaos is not the same as randomness** 0:40:05 Emotional patterns and the landscape of therapy 0:45:16 Why **psychosomatic explanations** need scrutiny 0:50:29 The difficulty of testing repressed anger 0:55:23 Mind and body: are we separating what belongs together? 1:00:05 What do we actually mean by repression? 1:05:16 How idealism interprets physical illness 1:10:27 **If everything is mind, does the word still mean anything?** 1:15:16 Why metaphysical claims draw different distinctions 1:20:10 Existing in mind versus having a mind 1:30:17 The danger of moving concepts between scientific models 1:35:18 Metaphysics can open questions—**evidence guides treatment** 1:40:02 Dissociation as a **collapse of temporal depth**? 1:45:10 Why might the world stop feeling real? 1:50:22 Memory: the past we use for the future In this session, we discussed how '*disorder'* has been pathologized when in fact, a healthy mind displays a functional degree of chaos. Here's an excerpt from the full session on this topic. Why disorder in your brain (and life) are crucial for any growth, how a holiday can be a useful injection of entropy to dislodge brooding, and why algorithmically, things have to get worse before they get better: The rest of the dialogue with Alexey Tolchinsky is below. Alexey emphasised the need for evidence before applying metaphysics to clinical practise, and his caution against extrapolating from personal experience or fixing on narrative models based on scant data. As the dialogue will show, he is passionate about formulating rigorous models based on clear evidence, in a field where the stakes are high: 25% of mental health professionals experience a completed suicide in their career. Although not an idealist, there was a convivial exchange about Bernardo's defence of idealism that a lot of people found useful, even those already very familiar with Bernardo's work. Next session, we continue the theme of the [implications of idealism](https://www.withrealityinmind.com/10th-june-therapeutic-implications-of-idealism-with-guest-alexey-tolchinsky/) on healing and therapy, in a Q&A with Bernardo. [Forms of life, forms of mind | Dr. Michael Levin | If mind is everywhere, where are all the panpsychiatrists? A (neuro)psychiatry-focussed discussionA discussion with a clinical psychologist and neuropsychiatrist about collective minds.![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/c5/20/c520bbe6-927b-460d-bf38-d4f48d5dc338/content/images/icon/Dr.-Michael-Levin-Site-Logo.png)Forms of life, forms of mindJohn Shearing![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/c5/20/c520bbe6-927b-460d-bf38-d4f48d5dc338/content/images/thumbnail/32-132-CellTherapy_R3-1.jpg)](https://thoughtforms.life/if-mind-is-everywhere-where-are-all-the-panpsychiatrists-a-neuropsychiatry-focussed-discussion/?ref=withrealityinmind.com) Speakers ![CTA Image](https://storage.ghost.io/c/c5/20/c520bbe6-927b-460d-bf38-d4f48d5dc338/content/images/2025/06/320x400.jpeg) Alexey Tolchinsky, Psy.D. [**Alexey Tolchinsky, Psy.D**](https://montgomerycountypsychologist.com/about?ref=withrealityinmind.com)**.**, clinical psychologist and Adjunct Professor at The George Washington University. He specializes in anxiety conditions such as panic and compulsion. Alexey has a strong interest in applying neuroscience and diverse philosophical frameworks to the clinical practise of helping people. For example, he doesn't think its helpful to think of [depression as a disease](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/embrace-the-unknown/202312/a-story-of-depression-as-a-disease?ref=withrealityinmind.com), but rather, a natural response with many potential causes. Think of a fever compared to a flu. It's a call for a deeper enquiry, not simply medicating away chemical states. Additionally, his interest in **chaos theory** challenges the concept of 'mental health **disorder.**' After all, a [healthy mind has a healthy level of chaos](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/embrace-the-unknown/202312/a-healthy-human-mind-has-elements-of-chaos?ref=withrealityinmind.com). The brain waves of both seizures and sleep display more order than an alert mind, and higher levels of chaos "correlate with a higher probability of recovery" from a vegetative state. And drawing on the unique perspectives of 'self' from Michael Levin and Karl Friston, he believes all dissociation conditions involve a collapse in our ability to future think and plan. Both depersonalization and derealisation involve a "[temporal depth collapse.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sq-CFM-raE&ref=withrealityinmind.com)" He has coauthored several [peer-reviewed papers](https://montgomerycountypsychologist.com/academic-publications?ref=withrealityinmind.com) with Michael Levin as well as exploring many fascinating ideas together. You might enjoy this email exchange and discussion: Speakers ![CTA Image](https://storage.ghost.io/c/c5/20/c520bbe6-927b-460d-bf38-d4f48d5dc338/content/images/2026/09/Bernardo-Kastrup-profile.jpg) Bernardo Kastrup Analytic idealism Bernardo Kastrup is the Executive Director of Essentia Foundation and Founder/CEO at AI systems company Euclyd BV. His work has set off the modern renaissance of metaphysical idealism. He has a Ph.D. in philosophy (ontology, philosophy of mind) and another in computer engineering (reconfigurable computing, artificial intelligence). As a scientist, he has worked for the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) and the Philips Research Laboratories (where the ‘Casimir Effect’ of Quantum Field Theory was discovered). He has also been creatively active in the high-tech industry for almost 30 years, having founded parallel processor company Silicon Hive (acquired by Intel in 2011) and worked as a technology strategist for the geopolitically significant company ASML. Most recently, he has founded AI company Euclyd BV. Formulated in detail in many academic papers and books, his ideas have been featured in *Scientific American*, the magazine of *The Institute of Art and Ideas*, the *Blog of the American Philosophical Association* and *Big Think*, among others. His most defining book is *Analytic Idealism in a Nutshell: A straightforward summary of the 21st-century’s only plausible metaphysics.* [Explore Bernardo’s work →](https://www.bernardokastrup.com/?ref=withrealityinmind.com)