> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://www.withrealityinmind.com/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # Could the answer be looking for you? - URL: https://www.withrealityinmind.com/q-a-michael-levin-bernardo-kastrup/ - Published: 2025-11-18T20:34:55.000Z - Updated: 2026-09-20T20:03:48.000Z - Description: Michael Levin and Bernardo Kastrup in conversation - Author: Amir Giles - Tags: recording Recording details Date: 18 November 2025 Duration: 2h 0m Free preview Chapters *Courtesy of Rita Conde* 00:00:10 Michael on Bernardo's book [Decoding Jung's Metaphysics](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Decoding-Jungs-Metaphysics-archetypal-experiential/dp/1789045657?ref=withrealityinmind.com) 00:05:24 **Trauma as a catalyst** at the level of biology 00:07:25 Trauma as a reset between internal personal complexes 00:08:56 Trauma leading to self insight (not transpersonal) 00:12:18 Stress as cognitive glue coordinating cell behaviour 00:15:41 Memory sharing and electrical networks 00:17:35 ... unrelated to IIT 00:20:00 Archetypes manifesting in biology 00:21:55 The functioning of **memory in planaria** 00:25:55 Is memory an encoded hologram? 00:26:00 Book reference: *Shuffle Brain* by Paul Pietsch 00:30:22 Memory doesn’t have a single reservoir 00:32:06 How groups adapt to toxins better than individuals 00:32:45 How Analytic Idealism accounts for **unexpected problem solving** 00:38:14 The answer is trying to reach the agent as much as the agent is trying to reach the answer 00:40:30 Why planaria have divergent personalities 00:45:45 Speculating on **spontaneous remission of disease** after extraordinary experiences 00:55:55 As an idealist, I’ll still want that pill 00:57:50 **Chemical networks that learn** 01:05:00 **Memory and time** 01:08:00 The inception of false memories 01:12:25 Platonic space and archetypes 01:14:48 Memory and the brain 01:15:38 Brain injuries 01:17:45 Platonic space in Michael’s work 01:22:15 DMT realm and Platonic realm 01:28:42 Jung: the archetypes are empty, but they inform (give form) 01:29:20 Mathematical *lattice* of a Daimon 01:31:07 We cannot be closer to ‘*it*’ because we are it in expression. 01:31:48 The role of the cell membrane in the evolution of consciousness — [Essentia Foundation paper](https://www.essentiafoundation.org/the-cell-membrane-as-the-missing-link-for-the-evolution-of-consciousness/reading/?ref=withrealityinmind.com) 01:35:30 The physicalist *faux pas*: consciousness arising from something unconscious 01:36:16 The cell membrane as the thin interface of separation 01:39:00 What is the cognitive lexicon 01:41:15 The solar system as a giant mind — how could we design an experiment to test that? 01:42:00 Is there a unified principle to healing? 01:53:27 Reintegrating cancer cells: future therapies 01:54:30 Bioelectrical fields in cancer cells 01:55:35 Belief is not enough: Native communities decimated by imported diseases 01:57:37 Possible explanations for the epidemic of depression or the rise of autoimmune diseases? 01:59:00 Next week’s guest and topic: Christopher Timmerman — DMT, pure consciousness, and entities This was a wide ranging Q&A with participant questions taken from comments at the bottom of [this page](https://www.withrealityinmind.com/michael-levin-q-a/). [Tues 18th Nov: Michael Levin Q&A on the intelligence pervading life and the Platonic RealmQ&A on the frontier of biology, computer science and philosophy![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/c5/20/c520bbe6-927b-460d-bf38-d4f48d5dc338/content/images/icon/Heraldry-Icon-transparent-bg-1-57.png)Bernardo Kastrup: With Reality in MindAmir Giles![](https://storage.ghost.io/c/c5/20/c520bbe6-927b-460d-bf38-d4f48d5dc338/content/images/thumbnail/michael-bernardo-sally-annette2-3.png)](https://www.withrealityinmind.com/michael-levin-q-a/) Every question evoked a fascinating account of Michael's research or thinking. What mechanisms **coordinate the behaviour of individual cells** towards shared goals? There may be several, but Michael's lab has found two - sharing memories and sharing stress. But that still leaves many phenomena unexplained. For example, when a planaria, (a worm with remarkable regenerative capability) is placed in barium, it's head explodes. It then grows a new head resistant to this toxin, a process which requires expressing very specific genes out of thousands of options - a problem solving capability that is astounding. Planaria are not exposed to barium outside of labs, so it can't be explained by evolution. By way of potential explanation, Bernardo offered his hunch, inverting the conventional way of thinking. If all of nature is one mind, the answer is already 'out there. 'Nature knows everything there is to be known, since it is everything. The question is how do we reverse the forgetting. "The key explanatory challenge is to say how, within a whole, things appear to be parts. And if you invert the challenge that way, it's less mind-boggling." ### The needle in the haystack is also looking for you Michael agrees that maybe solutions aren’t just passive things we have to stumble on by blind search. Maybe the structure of the world is such that the “right” solutions *pull* systems toward them. The usual story is molecules just drift around by Brownian motion until, by sheer luck, the right ones bump into each other like a needle found in a haystack. Michael suggests that in many real systems, it looks more like a *mutual* reaching-out, from the agent seeking a solution and the solution seeking the agent. He's releasing a paper soon with Chris Fields, detailing examples of this idea in biology and physics. ### The will to understanding Michael also spoke of chemical networks that learn and exhibit causal emergence, leading to an upward ratchet in intelligence and agency not explainable by biology or physics. These chemicals are not resident in living systems. It could be an indication of very early competencies in nature that what we call 'life' has learnt to utilize. For Bernardo, it implies that the **Will to Understanding** might be fundamental to existence. ### If everything is mind, what is medicine? Michael and Bernardo also shared thoughts on **spontaneous remissions of disease**, and why they are so rare. Drugs & surgery are not superfluous in Analytic Idealism, and meditation unlikely to cure all disease - but when it does, there is a way to account for it. Nevertheless, for Michael, if these cases happen once we could learn how to have them happen more often, with the implications for healing and medicine being profound. ## AI Summary This is generated by Zoom's AI technology. Let me know if you find it helpful and I can include it in some future newsletters... ### Exploring Jung's Insights Together The meeting began with informal greetings and introductions among participants. Amir and Michael discussed Michael's recent reading of Bernardo's book on Jung, which Michael found meaningful due to a synchronistic encounter with his son. Bernardo expressed appreciation for Michael's feedback on the book. The group then prepared to delve into a dialogue between Bernardo and Michael from their previous meeting, which Amir described as "amazing." Bernardo encouraged Michael to continue exploring Jung's work, suggesting that it could be a rewarding endeavor. ### Trauma and Transpersonal Experience The group discussed the relationship between trauma, dissociation, and potential access to transpersonal experiences. Michael explained that trauma can cause significant cellular and developmental changes, but he was cautious about drawing parallels to human psychology. Bernardo suggested that trauma might reset the system by disrupting integrated information theory (IIT) complexes, potentially leading to psychological insights but not necessarily transpersonal experiences. The discussion touched on concepts like cell stress, horizontal empathy, and monads, but no definitive conclusions were reached about trauma's role in accessing transpersonal states. ### Cellular Stress Sharing Mechanisms Michael explained his research on stress sharing as a cognitive glue that enables cells to collaborate and function together as a whole, even when they don't have individual memories or goals. He described how cells can share stress through leaky membranes, which leads to increased plasticity and allows for the formation of larger goal states and collaborative outcomes. Bernardo clarified that this concept of stress sharing is unrelated to the theory of Integrated Information Theory (IIT), as IIT focuses on whether a unitary, composite mental state arises across multiple cells, whereas Michael's work is about incentives for cooperation among cells. ### Jung's Types and Planarian Memory The group discussed Jung's theory of psychological types and their potential biological foundations, with Michael noting that while the connection between biology and psychological patterns is still being explored, demonstrating utility for basic behavioral propensities could open the door to understanding more complex systems. They also explored memory in planaria, with Michael explaining that while no one has properly tested memory retention in tiny pieces of planaria, his prediction is that memory would be distributed holistically rather than localized to specific pieces. Michael shared that planaria exhibit remarkable individual personalities and unique behaviors during training, though the mechanisms behind personality differentiation after division remain unclear. ### Planaria Research and Regeneration Insights The group discussed Michael's research on planaria, including experiments with toxins and regeneration. Michael explained that planaria can resist toxins better in groups and demonstrated remarkable regenerative abilities. Bernardo offered a philosophical perspective on the experiments, suggesting that everything starts from a state of knowing and that the challenge is to explain how things appear to be parts within a whole. The conversation touched on the complexity of planaria behavior and the potential role of genetics and experience in shaping their personalities. Amir raised questions about whether toroidal vortices could model biological behavioral processes and about the potential causal efficacy of dream-time revelations in healing. ### Understanding Spontaneous Healing Mechanisms The group discussed spontaneous remission and healing, with Michael emphasizing the need to understand why such events are rare despite being biologically possible. Bernardo and others debated the relationship between mind and body, with Bernardo suggesting that drug therapy and surgery can bypass the limitations of the ego to directly influence unconscious mental states. The conversation touched on the limitations of psychological insight in curing physical conditions, with Amrita highlighting how strong belief systems can sometimes work against healing. The discussion concluded with Amir introducing the next speaker, Jeff, who inquired about Michael's previous comments on biological telos and directional activity at the base of life. ### Mathematical Models of Consciousness Emergence Michael discussed his research on mathematical models of molecular pathways, highlighting that even random networks can exhibit learning and causal emergence, leading to an upward ratchet in intelligence and agency. He emphasized that this phenomenon can occur long before the evolution of self-reproducing units, suggesting a potential path to the emergence of consciousness. Rita raised a question about the contradiction between idealist memory as a non-physical process and its physical manifestation, to which Michael responded by explaining the need for a specific interface that allows memory patterns to manifest in the physical world. ### Analytic Idealism and Archetype Evolution Bernardo discussed analytic idealism, explaining that under this philosophy, the physical world is just a representation of mental processes and there is no separate realm of idealism. He clarified that archetypes are properties of what is, not separate entities, and that memories could potentially be encoded in specific brain locations, though this is not a requirement of idealism. Bernardo also addressed the question of whether archetypes are subject to evolution, explaining that they are part of the drive for fitness and that evolution would not drive for completeness in representing all mental states. ### Platonic Minds and Memory Access The meeting focused on discussions about the nature of minds, memory, and potential access to a platonic realm of possible minds. Michael emphasized that his current work involves developing useful frameworks rather than claiming ultimate truths about reality, while Bernardo discussed the metaphor of minds ingressing and the need to understand its deeper implications. Jorge raised a speculative question about whether DMT experiences might provide access to Michael's platonic realm, which Michael acknowledged as a possibility but noted that such experiences are not specific to brains and are being explored in various systems in the lab. Bernardo concluded by highlighting the power of thinking in terms of a platonic realm that informs and shapes other realms. ### Archetypes and Consciousness Evolution Bernardo and Jorge discussed Jung's concept of archetypes, emphasizing that archetypes are not separate realms but intrinsic dispositional regularities that inform the emergence of forms in both mental and physical realms. Jorge expressed a closer connection to these patterns of activity, while Bernardo clarified that archetypes are latent in everything and cannot be closer to us than they already are. Amir facilitated a discussion on the evolution of consciousness, referencing an essay by Professor John Torday that explores consciousness as a result of material interactions between cells. The conversation touched on the potential for symbiogenesis and phylogenesis to contribute to an understanding of consciousness differentiation at various biological levels, with Amir posing questions about the dissociation of mind at large and individual consciousness, as well as the concept of an evolving light cone and the possibility of humanity expanding its collective consciousness. ### Individuated Consciousness and Cell Membranes The group discussed the concept of individuated consciousness and its relationship to the cell membrane, with Bernardo explaining that the cell membrane acts as a Markov blanket separating internal and external states. Michael questioned whether the cell membrane is unique or essential for consciousness, suggesting that while it may be effective in biology, other systems could potentially achieve similar results. The discussion also touched on the cognitive light cone, with Michael defining it as the size of the largest goal an agent can pursue in a problem space, and considering whether similar concepts could apply to social or collective structures. ### Chronic Illness and Integrative Identity The meeting focused on exploring the connection between chronic illnesses, including cancer, and the concept of fragmentation or loss of integrative identity. Cate raised the question of whether there is a unified principle underlying these conditions, which Amir and Bernardo discussed in relation to cultural and psychological factors. Michael shared insights from his research, noting that while the proposed framework is relevant to many disorders, it may not fully explain all aspects of disease. The group also discussed the potential for bioelectric integration as a therapeutic approach in cancer treatment. Bernardo emphasized the importance of considering external factors, such as bacterial and viral infections, in the context of historical cultural changes. The conversation ended with plans for future discussions and a reminder about an upcoming event with Christopher Timmerman. Speakers ![CTA Image](https://storage.ghost.io/c/c5/20/c520bbe6-927b-460d-bf38-d4f48d5dc338/content/images/2026/09/Michael-Levin-profile.webp) Michael Levin ***"One of the most creative biologists working today" - Rupert Sheldrake** ***“Perhaps the most important person alive” - Bernardo Kastrup** Michael Levin is a Distinguished Professor in the Biology department at [Tufts](https://drmichaellevin.org/?ref=withrealityinmind.com), holds the Vannevar Bush endowed Chair, and serves as director of the [Allen Discovery Center at Tufts](https://allencenter.tufts.edu/?ref=withrealityinmind.com). He is also an associate member of the [Wyss Institute at Harvard](https://wyss.harvard.edu/team/associate-faculty/michael-levin-ph-d/?ref=withrealityinmind.com). His group works at the intersection of developmental biology, artificial life, bioengineering, synthetic morphology, and cognitive science. Seeking general principles of life-as-it-can-be, they use a wide range of natural animal models and also create novel synthetic and chimeric life forms. Their goal is to develop conceptual frameworks and practical tools that help detect, understand, predict, and communicate with truly diverse intelligences, including cells, tissues, organs, synthetic living constructs, robots, and software-based AIs. His mission is to develop fundamental understanding of how minds of all kinds arise, scale, persist, and change, and to use that knowledge to benefit the embodied experience of sentient beings, through biomedicine and beyond. Speakers ![CTA Image](https://storage.ghost.io/c/c5/20/c520bbe6-927b-460d-bf38-d4f48d5dc338/content/images/2026/09/Bernardo-Kastrup-profile.jpg) Bernardo Kastrup Analytic idealism Bernardo Kastrup is the Executive Director of Essentia Foundation and Founder/CEO at AI systems company Euclyd BV. His work has set off the modern renaissance of metaphysical idealism. He has a Ph.D. in philosophy (ontology, philosophy of mind) and another in computer engineering (reconfigurable computing, artificial intelligence). As a scientist, he has worked for the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) and the Philips Research Laboratories (where the ‘Casimir Effect’ of Quantum Field Theory was discovered). He has also been creatively active in the high-tech industry for almost 30 years, having founded parallel processor company Silicon Hive (acquired by Intel in 2011) and worked as a technology strategist for the geopolitically significant company ASML. Most recently, he has founded AI company Euclyd BV. Formulated in detail in many academic papers and books, his ideas have been featured in *Scientific American*, the magazine of *The Institute of Art and Ideas*, the *Blog of the American Philosophical Association* and *Big Think*, among others. His most defining book is *Analytic Idealism in a Nutshell: A straightforward summary of the 21st-century’s only plausible metaphysics.* [Explore Bernardo’s work →](https://www.bernardokastrup.com/?ref=withrealityinmind.com)